An ethical question ..sort of. (1 Viewer)

[JohnnyNguyen]

Bought a few fish from a usually reputable LFS in town a few days ago. Put them in a spanking brand new, never saw water QT tank and after two days....Bam...Velvet!!! Lucky me right? So what woukd you do? Broadcast it online to warn unsuspecting, potential buyers that they have a system wide outbreak? Pull management to the side and politely inform them they have a deadly infestation? Im leaning toward the latter but their husbandry over the years has been subpar to say the least. No offense but i think this is a norm for most LFS as their primary objective is to move their livestocks for profits thereby keeping water parameters fall to the ayside. Thoughts?

 

[johntdaballa]

That's on you ! Proper practice qt your own fish.


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[steveb]

sorry to hear. have you started treatment?

Me: I would let the vendor know.

Unfortunately, with the volume of fish that come through the stores you have to assume every fish you buy, from any vendor, has something.

 

[PorpoiseHork]

I agree with Steve. If the LFS is one you have a good relationship with let them know. I'm not one to go shaming an LFS because I got a sick fish from them. Chances are this was a fish they just got in and was already infected. When I see a fish at a LFS I usually ask them how long they have had it in. If it's a new shipment I tend to be more cautious than if it were one that's been in their tanks for a couple weeks. That said I will still QT the new fish either way.

Most vendors do not have the ability to QT all their new arrivals before placing them on sale. So if I am interested in a particular fish I will watch it in their tank for a little bit to see how it's behaving. Is it rubbing the rock? If so is it just once, or repeatedly etc. Hopefully when I buy a fish it will be fine, but if it doesn't make the first 7 days, I take it back for credit. It sucks, but it happens.

Hopefully yours will make it.

 

[FarmerTy]

Yeah, that's terrible that the fish have velvet but to me, its the end users problem. The LFSs get velvet from the vendors... That's the source of the fish. They didn't produce it in their own tanks in their store.

I know of a LFS owner that can literally tell me which distributors have a higher chance of velvet and which don't. The LFS does their best to pass you along a healthy fish but often, the don't receive one in the first place.

I would let them know so they can try to treat but trust no fish, from anyone.

 

[webster1234]

Hopefully when I buy a fish it will be fine, but if it doesn't make the first 7 days, I take it back for credit. It sucks, but it happens.

Hopefully yours will make it.

I've never had a LFS offer me a credit for a fish that didn't make it. Not that I've directly asked, but have insinuated a credit and was left to feel like it was just too bad. And this was a $250 fish.

 

[bpb]

Yep. It’s up to us what we put in our tanks. It is not the fault of the vendor. ESPECIALLY with fish. They come and go so quickly in their systems. They could in theory get a fish with velvet in from a wild collect and sell it before it even transfers its illness. Like mentioned. It’s really a distributor problem. Not retail level. Couldn’t hurt to tell them though. I’d NOT put them on blast


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[frankc]

I've never had a LFS offer me a credit for a fish that didn't make it. Not that I've directly asked, but have insinuated a credit and was left to feel like it was just too bad. And this was a $250 fish.

The only LFS that I know of that does this is Aquarium World. For online purchases, Live Aquaria has a great refund policy.

I agree with the others - the LFS can't really be held responsible for fish that come in with disease, and always quarantine.

 

[Matyas]

I would go with option number two. No need to cause trouble over livestock. So many things can go wrong and considering a distributer or retailer liable is not entirely fair. Some things die, welcome to reefing!

 

[Bigfishy]

Yeah, that's terrible that the fish have velvet but to me, its the end users problem. The LFSs get velvet from the vendors... That's the source of the fish. They didn't produce it in their own tanks in their store.

I know of a LFS owner that can literally tell me which distributors have a higher chance of velvet and which don't. The LFS does their best to pass you along a healthy fish but often, the don't receive one in the first place.

I would let them know so they can try to treat but trust no fish, from anyone.

I look at it as gambling in Vegas. You try and do everything thing that puts the odds in you favor. Most stores run copper and such to help the fish while they have them in their tanks, so the fish might look ok. Not the stores fault. But as said look at how long they have had the fish, is it eating? Does it swim ok, is it hiding, does it look stressed out? But at the end it is up to Lady Luck.


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[reefling]

News flash. All these stores buy from the same wholesalers. If you think one lfs is safer than another, you are falling victim to branding.

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[Reefahholic]

Just a quick heads up.... I’ve seen about everything (including Velvet) at about every fish store in town. I’ve even had Velvet come in form Live Aquaria.

So really it’s not anybody’s fault. I would not mention the store or ruin your relationship with them. We should all QT our fish. If we don’t, we can only blame ourselves. We should treat every fish as if it could possibly have everything. Then deal with them one by one until you win or the fish dies. When the fish has been in a tank absent of medication and observed daily for signs and symptoms for 2-4 weeks (depending on the circumstances) and has “passed” the observation period...only then should it be considered clean and go into the display.

 

[Reefahholic]

sorry to hear. have you started treatment?

Unfortunately, with the volume of fish that come through the stores you have to assume every fish you buy, from any vendor, has something.

Agree 100%.

 

[JohnnyNguyen]

I want to place an emphasis on the fact I said earlier that im leaning toward the latter as there is no need to put a LFS on blast just for the sake of putting them on blast. Only reasons I'd want to do do that is a two prongs approach on my part-1) Warn others of an impending catastrophe 2) To serve notice so the shops can up their games in term of better husbandry/quarantine procedures. Regardless, i think im going to have a talk with Mgnt this weekend but i have a feeling it will be a futile attempt on my end.

 

[Reefahholic]

News flash. All these stores buy from the same wholesalers. If you think one lfs is safer than another, you are falling victim to branding.

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I agree. Most get fish from a lot of the same vendors.

 

[reefling]

There are only about 6 wholesalers in the industry to supply everyone.

I agree. Most get fish from a lot of the same vendors.

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[Reefahholic]

I want to place an emphasis on the fact I said earlier that im leaning toward the latter as there is no need to put a LFS on blast just for the sake of putting them on blast. Only reasons I'd want to do do that is a two prongs approach on my part-1) Warn others of an impending catastrophe 2) To serve notice so the shops can up their games in term of better husbandry/quarantine procedures. Regardless, i think im going to have a talk with Mgnt this weekend but i have a feeling it will be a futile attempt on my end.

Man.. I can certainly understand your frustration. It sucks I know.

There’s just no way these LFS can possibly treat for every parasite. They all have different life cycles. Plus... there’s a lot of fish that don’t tolerate certain medications.

My suggestion is to let this be an educational experience. Learn how to QT, treat, and defeat Velvet. Get the fish in Copper and run at a therapeutic for 4 weeks.

What kind of fish are we talking about? He may not tolerate Copper.

 

[Reefahholic]

In my mind...they’re all infected. I don’t care if the fish is spotless and eating like a pig. He can be relaxed and looking perfect.

I’ve had Velvet show up twice around the 21 day mark. Yes...3 weeks later. Copper will mask the symptoms.

When I buy fish I just start at the beginning. Fresh water dip first. Then CP or Copper while I do a few tank transfers. This will leave Velvet dinospores behind, but will not affect trophonts that are already on the fish. Buy the second transfer, the Trophonts have already fallen off and the fish are protected from any new dinospores because they’ve been in therapeutic conditions. This is why I transfer to a non-medicated tank on the 2nd transfer. From there I get the fish on Prazipro and eating API General Cure. I get them eating really well during the observation period. If something pops up in this time period of 3-4 weeks- I’ll deal with it. By this time if the fish do have any other issues... they typically handle it well, because they’re a lot stronger and less stressed at this time.

It’s all about patience. Believe me, it feels amazing to see healthy fish “that you know are clean” swim into your display. It’s well worth the effort.

 

[Carrie17]

In my mind...they’re all infected. I don’t care if the fish is spotless and eating like a pig. He can be relaxed and looking perfect.

I’ve had Velvet show up twice around the 21 day mark. Yes...3 weeks later. Copper will mask the symptoms.

When I buy fish I just start at the beginning. Fresh water dip first. Then CP or Copper while I do a few tank transfers. This will leave Velvet dinospores behind, but will not affect trophonts that are already on the fish. Buy the second transfer, the Trophonts have already fallen off and the fish are protected from any new dinospores because they’ve been in therapeutic conditions. This is why I transfer to a non-medicated tank on the 2nd transfer. From there I get the fish on Prazipro and eating API General Cure. I get them eating really well during the observation period. If something pops up in this time period of 3-4 weeks- I’ll deal with it. By this time if the fish do have any other issues... they typically handle it well, because they’re a lot stronger and less stressed at this time.

It’s all about patience. Believe me, it feels amazing to see healthy fish “that you know are clean” swim into your display. It’s well worth the effort.

@Reefaholic, could you share with is your exact procedure? Step by step, with medication doses? Please?

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[Reefahholic]

Sure. It’s basically what I mentioned above.

I get a batch of fish that I know can either tolerate Copper or CP. If a particular fish can’t tolerate one of those medications, I’ll wait and put him with those fish who can. Example, I know a Blue Regal tang will start to decline and die about 3-4 days into a CP treatment. So I’ll wait and put him in with a batch of fish that all tolerate Copper.

Before I put the fish in a medicated QT, I’ll normally FW dip the fish. Sometimes I’m too lazy. After that, they go into the medicated tank at a therapeutic level. If it’s CP I only dose 40/mg per Gal for 30 days. I had bad luck with anything higher unless the fish are really hardy. If I’m using Copper, I’ll run at 1.8-2.0 ppm for 30 days. I say 1.8 because 1.5 is the low range of therapeutic and I give myself some wiggle room. Remember to “mark a line on the glass” and top off the tank. This will keep the level stable. If you have an ATO on the tank...that’s even better.

During this 30 days of treatment for either medication, I’ll do two tank transfers. Yes, I do 2 tank transfers every 72 hours. This serves two purposes. One being that it leaves any Velevet Dinospores behind. Or Trophonts who may have already dropped off. Two...it controls Ammonia or Nitrite levels.

After the second transfer the fish have been at a therapeutic level for 7 days. In theory... most are parasite free at this point. This is why I transfer to a non-medicated tank on the 2nd transfer. After the medication is dropped, the fish will begin to eat well. This is when you get them on Parazipro. Or you can start them eating API General Cure. I do the latter now. Remember, if you go with the API General Cure first, you still need to observe in a non-medicated tank after this stage is complete. Then you can do Prazipro at the same time as it shouldn’t mask the parasites because it’s not treating the major 4.

Good luck!